Animatsiya - Discussion

1. Admin 2023-11-21 00:40:49 (edited 2023-11-21 01:29:48)

I think this was a very strong beginning to Marchenkova's directing career. It's has lots of variety and changes in mood, not to mention animation techniques and visual styles, and it already seems to have most of the elements that she would draw from in one way or another in her subsequent films. It feels both pretty grounded (in how carefully the attic and the two character's interactions are shown) - a bit like Yuriy Norshteyn's films - as well as phantasmagorically inventive - a bit like Robert Saakyants' films.

The only real downside I see is that it rather relies for its humour on the viewer being familiar with the characters and stories being visually referenced, and that will only be true for those above a certain age within the (former) Soviet cultural sphere. Younger children will not have been exposed to the stories yet, while in other places even older viewers wouldn't know them. In North America, for example, some of the stories are also fairly well known, at least by reputation (the genie and flying carpet, Baba Yaga and her hut, Santa Claus, the Pied Piper, Zmey Gorynych) but others aren't well-known at all (Alyonushka and her brother, the frog traveler, Doctor Aybolit, Grandpa Mazay, the 3 wise men, Tsar Saltan) - I'm not quite sure about the wolf fishing with his tail or about Thumbelina.

1. Cynir 2023-11-20 18:41:39

This tale was quite famous in the minds of Vietnamese generations who have grown up since the 1970s, which is the time when Soviet culture flooded Vietnam through the book and newspaper aid policy. It has led directly to a familiar saying : "Return to the old tub" (trở về với cái máng cũ). This saying is satirical about someone who, after great success, begins to encounter bitter failures. An example : "When the Italian team returned to the old tub".

However, there is a slight translation problem : In the habits of Vietnamese farmers, the tub is a tool to store food for pigs ("máng lợn" ; what the Britishs understand is hog trough or pig feeder). Therefore, Vietnamese translators in the 1970s instilled that awareness into the translation itself, and the result was that the crowd completely misunderstanded.

Replies: >>2

4. Cynir 2023-11-20 00:41:01 (edited 2023-11-20 09:21:18)

Yes, I'll explain right here !

The "principal graduate" (狀元, trạng nguyên) or "first doctoral candidate" is the title given to the scholar who achieved the highest score on highest level of the Imperial Examination. In fact, during more than a thousand years of East Asian imperial examination, there have not been many exams that applied this degree. Why so ? As a rule, each exam selects only one principal graduate and this person will almost certainly become the prime minister within a few years. However, the evaluation standards are extremely difficult, even more difficult than today's Doctor degree. It requires not only abilities and qualities but also personal history within three generations of his family. Therefore, the principal graduate appears in life only as a myth about education and morality. When it is mentioned in a literary context, we just need to understand that the character is very talented and behaves with integrity. In this story, the principal graduate degree plays a role as the result of the character's rigorous process of moral and educational training. Strange events just positively support that.

Besides, I can also help you understand that : "Poinsettia exam" (科舉) is an informal name for the imperial examination. This exam is held every 3-4 years, if the country is in chaos, we will have to wait even ten years or more. Contestants must go through three rounds like EURO and World Cup : Province, Capital and Court. Candidates are given a small travel fee by the government, and they must bring tents and beds (these items are woven from bamboo, small in size and can be folded and worn over the shoulder) to the exam venue. In the past, this was a very difficult journey, but in return, the candidates were respected by the whole society (because the majority of people were illiterate), they were exempted from paying taxes, joining the army and doing social work. However, the exam is very strict, any cheating by both examiners, candidates and guards can lead them to the guillotine. In addition, the words and meanings in the test are not allowed to refer to all royal figures, anyone who violates (accidentally or intentionally) can spend many years in prison. Because of these strict regulations, most students only hope to pass the first exam to have the opportunity to teach or become a pharmacist. There were even ridiculous cases where many candidates took the exam for decades and still could not pass. As for the final exam, the emperor directly sets the questions and supervises the exam, because this round usually only has a few dozen persons passing. The list of successful candidates will be announced on several boards placed at the royal palace gate. Of course, the highest passer will have their name listed on the golden board (I'm sorry that this detail caused you to misunderstand : Board, not Table). The golden board later is an allegory for success today, actually, in the past it was just a wooden board painted yellow. According to the law, yellow and golden are the emperor's exclusive colors, anyone else using them will be considered a violation, so being named on the golden board is a huge honor for Asian students of all time.

About the hidden meaning of the story, as I understand it, the turtle symbolizes longevity, and anyone who lives long will accumulate many valuable experiences, therefore the pearl is a symbol of wisdom. The scholar is given a gem as well as a precious book to pass the exam. Speaking of this, I think of stories "The Sleeping Beauty" and "The Devil with the Three Golden Hairs". Obviously, the maiden is very young and has little life experience, so she needs to be "opened her mouth" by a very experienced man. This is a problem of physiological psychology education. :D

3. Admin 2023-11-20 00:00:34

>>2

2. Cynir 2023-11-19 22:16:47 (edited 2023-11-20 01:26:58)

This film belongs to the theme of humans searching for truth. East Asian folk literature in general has very few adventure stories, so perhaps it also reflects that Asian people are not interested in exploring or even conquering fate. Therefore, stories like "Brave Park" are very commendable. They seem to be both ironic and question the elite's attitude towards society : Do you sit and feel sorry for yourself or do you want to improve your situation ?

The following is a very famous Vietnamese story, which was composed around the 1950s under the influence of Andersen and Grimms. The film adaptation is also quite popular (made in the Czechoslovakian style), although the effects are quite poor.

✎

THE POOR SCHOLAR AND THE JADE EMPEROR

Once upon a time there was a poor scholar. During the day, he had to work as a hired laborer to have money to go to school. He lived a miserable life until he was thirty years old but was still poor.

One day, he thought : "I heard that in the East Sea there is an island where the Jade Emperor often comes to rest. I have to go there to meet Him to complain because He has left us poor for too long".

The next day, he packed his bags and left. The journey was truly arduous. Soon the food he brought with him ran out, so he had to stop at a roadside house to beg for food. This homeowner is a rich man. He was kind and sent servants to prepare dinner for him to eat. Hearing him talk about going to see the Jade Emperor, the homeowner gave him some travel money and advised : "By the way, please ask Jade Emperor to do me a favor. I haven't done anything wrong in my whole life, but why did my wife and I only have one daughter and she was mute right from her birth ?".

He accepted and left to continue his journey. Soon, the money was gone and he had to stop at a small house to ask for help. The owner also served him food to eat. After knowing the purpose of his trip, that man kindly gave him rice and said : "If you meet Jade Emperor, please ask something for me. I have an orange tree planted in front of my house. The branches and leaves are lush and green, but why do oranges never bear fruit ?".

He accepted and left. He walked forever until he reached the beach. Looking out at the vast ocean, not seeing a ship, he felt depressed. Suddenly a huge turtle emerged from the water. Turtle told him : "Climb on my back ! I will take you to the island to meet Jade Emperor. However, by the way, please ask Jade Emperor for me why I've been here for a thousand years and am still living as a turtle without changing my fate ?".

Waiting for the scholar to step down, the turtle suddenly parted the waves and swam away. Soon the island appeared before him. He said goodbye to the turtle and then stepped onto the island. Encountering a mountain range blocking his way, he tried to climb to the top and then sat down at a tree stump to wait.

One morning, while waiting, he suddenly saw a bright light on the top of the mountain. Then the Jade Emperor leisurely stepped out from that light. He walked up to the Jade Emperor and immediately asked about the turtle's advice. After listening, Jade Emperor said : "He must release the pearl in his mouth to be reincarnated".

He continued to tell the matter of the orange grower. Jade Emperor said : "That orange does not bear fruit because there is gold under its root". If so, he asked the fate of the mute maiden, then Jade Emperor replied : "She can't speak just because she hasn't met the principal graduate to open her mouth yet".

Finally, he was about to ask about himself, Jade Emperor suddenly snapped : "How unlucky ! I left my Celestial Palace and came down here to find some peace and quiet, but I didn't expect to be disturbed by mortals".

Having finished speaking, Jade Emperor rode a cloud and flew back to Heaven. The scholar had to sadly turn on his heel. When he reached the sea, he saw turtles waiting. While carrying him back to the mainland, the turtle asked : "How is my business ?". He replied : "You must spit out a pearl from your mouth to be reincarnated". The turtle spit out the pearl and gave it to him. He immediately turned into a beautiful goldfish to swimm around.

When he arrived at the orange grower's house, the owner came out to greet him and asked : "Have you asked the Jade Emperor for me ?". He replied : "Already ! There is gold under the orange tree. Dig up the gold and your orange tree will bear fruit". Indeed, the homeowner took a hoe and dug up a pot of gold. He was so happy that he gave half to the scholar.

After that, he continued on his way. He arrived at the capital right at the time when the king was organizing the poinsettia exam. Because he carries a precious pearl in his body, he becomes unusually intelligent. Having the gold, he immediately stayed to buy a tent and bed, then prepare some books to enter the exam. That year he passed the exam and ranked first in the gold board.

Not long after, principal graduate rode the royal horse honorably back to the village. When he passed by a rich man's house, he did not forget his promise and stopped his horse to visit. It's strange ! Before the scholar could tell the owner about Jade Emperor's answer, the mute daughter came out to welcome the principal graduate. Seeing him, she suddenly exclaimed out loud. Her father was so happy that he married his daughter to the principal graduate.

Thanks a lot for that story, Cynir, I enjoyed reading that!

Although I have a few comments and questions:

>She can't speak just because she hasn't met the principal graduate to open her mouth yet
This seems worded a bit awkwardly. Actually, I wasn't sure what "principal graduate" is, though it seems to be explained later in the story.

>Poinsettia exam
What is that? I tried to search for it on Google but didn't find anything.

>Because he carries a precious pearl in his body, he becomes unusually intelligent.
Did he swallow it after the turtle gave it to him? That seems odd, as it seems like you would carry a precious pearl in a pocket or something, rather than swallow it.
Also, I didn't know that having a pearl inside you makes you intelligent - is this common in East Asian stories?

>ranked first in the gold table.
What is "the gold table"?

Anyway, despite all of that I understood the story well. The attitude of the Jade Emperor (seemingly grumpy and short-tempered with the question-asker, but actually giving great advice whose worth isn't apparent at first) reminded me of the Good Magician in Piers Anthony's Xanth novels.

2. Cynir 2023-11-19 22:16:47 (edited 2023-11-20 01:26:58)

This film belongs to the theme of humans searching for truth. East Asian folk literature in general has very few adventure stories, so perhaps it also reflects that Asian people are not interested in exploring or even conquering fate. Therefore, stories like "Brave Park" are very commendable. They seem to be both ironic and question the elite's attitude towards society : Do you sit and feel sorry for yourself or do you want to improve your situation ?

The following is a very famous Vietnamese story, which was composed around the 1950s under the influence of Andersen and Grimms. The film adaptation is also quite popular (made in the Czechoslovakian style), although the effects are quite poor.

✎

THE POOR SCHOLAR AND THE JADE EMPEROR

Once upon a time there was a poor scholar. During the day, he had to work as a hired laborer to have money to go to school. He lived a miserable life until he was thirty years old but was still poor.

One day, he thought : "I heard that in the East Sea there is an island where the Jade Emperor often comes to rest. I have to go there to meet Him to complain because He has left us poor for too long".

The next day, he packed his bags and left. The journey was truly arduous. Soon the food he brought with him ran out, so he had to stop at a roadside house to beg for food. This homeowner is a rich man. He was kind and sent servants to prepare dinner for him to eat. Hearing him talk about going to see the Jade Emperor, the homeowner gave him some travel money and advised : "By the way, please ask Jade Emperor to do me a favor. I haven't done anything wrong in my whole life, but why did my wife and I only have one daughter and she was mute right from her birth ?".

He accepted and left to continue his journey. Soon, the money was gone and he had to stop at a small house to ask for help. The owner also served him food to eat. After knowing the purpose of his trip, that man kindly gave him rice and said : "If you meet Jade Emperor, please ask something for me. I have an orange tree planted in front of my house. The branches and leaves are lush and green, but why do oranges never bear fruit ?".

He accepted and left. He walked forever until he reached the beach. Looking out at the vast ocean, not seeing a ship, he felt depressed. Suddenly a huge turtle emerged from the water. Turtle told him : "Climb on my back ! I will take you to the island to meet Jade Emperor. However, by the way, please ask Jade Emperor for me why I've been here for a thousand years and am still living as a turtle without changing my fate ?".

Waiting for the scholar to step down, the turtle suddenly parted the waves and swam away. Soon the island appeared before him. He said goodbye to the turtle and then stepped onto the island. Encountering a mountain range blocking his way, he tried to climb to the top and then sat down at a tree stump to wait.

One morning, while waiting, he suddenly saw a bright light on the top of the mountain. Then the Jade Emperor leisurely stepped out from that light. He walked up to the Jade Emperor and immediately asked about the turtle's advice. After listening, Jade Emperor said : "He must release the pearl in his mouth to be reincarnated".

He continued to tell the matter of the orange grower. Jade Emperor said : "That orange does not bear fruit because there is gold under its root". If so, he asked the fate of the mute maiden, then Jade Emperor replied : "She can't speak just because she hasn't met the principal graduate to open her mouth yet".

Finally, he was about to ask about himself, Jade Emperor suddenly snapped : "How unlucky ! I left my Celestial Palace and came down here to find some peace and quiet, but I didn't expect to be disturbed by mortals".

Having finished speaking, Jade Emperor rode a cloud and flew back to Heaven. The scholar had to sadly turn on his heel. When he reached the sea, he saw turtles waiting. While carrying him back to the mainland, the turtle asked : "How is my business ?". He replied : "You must spit out a pearl from your mouth to be reincarnated". The turtle spit out the pearl and gave it to him. He immediately turned into a beautiful goldfish to swimm around.

When he arrived at the orange grower's house, the owner came out to greet him and asked : "Have you asked the Jade Emperor for me ?". He replied : "Already ! There is gold under the orange tree. Dig up the gold and your orange tree will bear fruit". Indeed, the homeowner took a hoe and dug up a pot of gold. He was so happy that he gave half to the scholar.

After that, he continued on his way. He arrived at the capital right at the time when the king was organizing the poinsettia exam. Because he carries a precious pearl in his body, he becomes unusually intelligent. Having the gold, he immediately stayed to buy a tent and bed, then prepare some books to enter the exam. That year he passed the exam and ranked first in the gold board.

Not long after, principal graduate rode the royal horse honorably back to the village. When he passed by a rich man's house, he did not forget his promise and stopped his horse to visit. It's strange ! Before the scholar could tell the owner about Jade Emperor's answer, the mute daughter came out to welcome the principal graduate. Seeing him, she suddenly exclaimed out loud. Her father was so happy that he married his daughter to the principal graduate.

Replies: >>3

1. Admin 2023-11-16 01:58:06 (edited 2023-11-16 02:00:13)

Despite the nice animation technique, I didn't like this one very much.

It seemed to intentionally be trying to pull down into the mud everything that's beautiful and beloved by those who love classical Russian culture (and the traditional West European culture that Russians like), but to me it just ended up reflecting the ugliness in its creators' heads instead (or in the environment around them?).

There was constant swearing, nudity and vulgarity throughout the film.

Some things that happen (spoilers ahead):

00:50 - the bears in Shishkin's famous painting get shot at right afterwards
01:18 - Shishkin himself was the killer, and wasn't actually an artist but a murderer and plagiarist
06:46 - symbolic (?) destruction of traditional European art of the sort still liked by Russians, and the owner made to look ridiculous
11:30 - circus owner who wants to visit Russia is drinking himself to death
13:36 - Russians are a formless, faceless crowd with no individuality or voice
14:10, 16:24, 19:27 - any Russian artist or entrepreneur immediately gets hauled off to Siberia for no reason
Also, a lot of famous Russian paintings (such as Natalia Goncharova's "Sunflowers") get thrown into the garbage throughout the film

I guess I'm filing this under the "these people were feeling really salty about Russians in general" category... ;)

I greatly preferred Riho Unt's 1987 film that's also on the site.

1. Cynir 2023-11-14 04:01:58

I learned this story from the 2nd grade Literature textbook. But of course, the story was very long so we only had accessed to an excerpt. Its idea is quite strange, so with a child's mentality, you will think this boy is so stupid. However, let's look from the eyes of adults to learn how profound the author is.

In recent years, the problem of school violence in Vietnam has been increasing at a terrifying rate and has even reduced the reputation of the minister of education (who is my former university lecturer). It's true that textbooks still teach children ideas about honor, morality, and even children's rights ; but in reality, they are influenced by a lot of junk in society, so they only act according to their feelings. I myself am also one of the millions of victims of school violence, so I understand how useful honor will be if we actually enforce it, instead of just saying it but not doing it.

8. Admin 2023-11-09 21:13:50 (edited 2023-11-09 21:23:22)

>>7
>In Vietnam, we are often taught that, "Russia" means "Eastern Rus", so it is absurd to use "Russia" in the context of the 12th century.
Well, "Russia" has meant different things at different times and places. So whether it is absurd or not depends on which meaning you're using...
Until WW1, and often even after, the discourse in Russian and English imperial capitals and academic centres was that "Russians" are what are called "Eastern Slavs" today, and could further be split into "Great Russians" (Velikorossy), who mainly live in what's now known as Russia, "Little Russians" (Malorossy) who mainly live in what's now known as Ukraine, and "White Russians" (Belorossy) who mainly live in what's now known as Belarus (the country that has kept its name the closest). Kind of like Americans being separated into Yankees, Dixielanders, Appalachians, etc, but with a longer history and more language/dialect divergence.
As a result of WW1, due to both external (Germans conquering and ruling much of the Western Russian Empire for some years) and internal (communists coming to power) forces, the names shifted. But not everybody used the changed terms or was even aware of what this shift of terminology meant or why it was done.

I'm not quite sure, but I have this impression that in the medieval era, and also in the Imperial era until WW1, if you'd asked most people in any of those three regions what they were, they would have said "I'm Russian", and if you asked them to specify further, they would have said "I'm Great Russian" or "I'm Little Russian" or "I'm White Russian". After WW1, the "Great Russians" kept answering "I'm Russian" but the others were encouraged to not answer that way any more, and their native language/dialect variations were heavily promoted by the state (for various reasons, such as wanting the Soviet state to be more multicultural).

Perhaps if the capital of the East Slavs had stayed in Kiev/Kyiv, the locals would have gained more territory than they ended up having and been proudly calling THEMSELVES the "Great Russians" and eventually simply "Russians", while the people living in Moscow might've been encouraged to call themselves Novgorodians or Pomorians or something, and speaking Novgorodian or Pomorian which honest-to-goodness has nothing to do with "Russian", and is a member of the civilized Scandinavian family of nations... ;)

So eventually, you got the current situation where "Russian" usually means what "Great Russian" used to mean (in English it can also just mean "citizen of Russia", while in Russian that's two different words), and "East Slav" means what "Russian" used to mean.

But the famous 19th century writers are still widely read, so the old meanings are not forgotten either! It causes a lot of misunderstandings, since two people can use the same words and mean very different things by them. If you want to increase the risk of eventual conflict between people, that's a pretty good way to do it...

1. Admin 2023-11-09 14:22:36

Well, since I know this is going to come up...
I'm aware of the whole Kyiv/Kiev thing. In this case, I used "Kiev" and Russian personal names for the credits in the subtitles because this film was made in the Soviet era and that was more widespread at the time (plus for names, I'm less likely to make a mistake that way).

For post-independence Ukrainian cartoons on this site, I use the Ukrainian transliterations.

3. Malva_miravis 2023-11-07 14:37:55

>>2
Will try to watch them !
Despite the "weirdness" of the film, the metaphore is quite simple so o I wouldn't be surprised if kids understood it, but I'm also surprised how kids weren't scared of the surrealism and disturbing scenes haha, but I guess it was the times

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